Attached or Addicted? The Truth About Codependency Ep 303 featuring Dr Kalaj

In this episode we discuss codependency in a way never heard before! Special thanks to Dr Kalaj https://www.drkristinakalaj.com/ 
If you found this to be helpful and want to discuss further with her we urge you to reach out. #codependency #coachdtm #rrp #rrpkeke #yagirlkd

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:54

I got two investigators. Dropping gyms we just trying to really see who wants it. Oh, it's been it there we own it. Smell like money, I can loan it. Ticky quick to blocking with the case, quick to kick them off.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

What up though, you know who it is. It's your boy Coach DTM aka pure motivation. I am Mr. Energy. Everybody love me. I don't have one enemy. Our podcast is here now, so you gotta respect it. You never get off on us because we never the exit. If you know me, then you know that I'm more than the savage who loves living life and is allergic to average. So in conclusion, so it's no confusion. If you see somebody really than us, it's an illusion. What's going on? Hold on, let me get my bill. I gotta get a bill in this episode. This is this is gonna be a good one, y'all. This is gonna be a good one. So today, this is a special episode, man. Welcome to Relationship Reality Podcast, where you definitely get your daily dose of relationship and reality. I've been canvassing the world and I'm a firm believer that you receive the energy that you put out, right? So you get you meet the people that matches you in a lot of different ways. So for those if you didn't know, I'm also a coach, I'm a relationship coach. So I went out and I found somebody that not only could help me and what I do, but it's gonna bring you guys a wealth of knowledge today. If you just pay attention and listen, we're gonna have a lot of good, you know, a lot of fun, everything like that. So, with over 25 years in the business, I'm gonna let her introduce herself, tell us about what she does, I mean all that good stuff.

SPEAKER_03 2:27

Thank you so much for having me. My name is Dr. Christina Kalai. I'm a clinical psychologist. I open, I own my own practice in Midtown Detroit. Um I do, I have such a long history of different things. I worked in a jail for a while as a therapist. Really? Yeah, I don't think you knew that. I actually, when I first went to school back in the 90s, I specialized in family and marriage.

SPEAKER_04 2:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 2:51

And then it's just morphed. Now I also do, so I do outpatient therapy for individuals, couples, and families. And then I also do evaluations. So I do evaluations for like if someone has been on medication for a long time, but they feel really stuck, they're not really sure what's going on. So, but I also do children too, from like school age to adults. So it's kind of one of those things, it's like two different hats because as an evaluator, I basically spend time really digging in and I give them a roadmap to recovery, but I'm not their therapist. I just give them a roadmap to recovery. Okay. So yeah, so and then I also supervise, I do advocacy work in many different capacities. Cross fingers, I'm applying to be the Michigan Psychological Association Council representative at a national level. Let's get it. So I'm really excited about that. I'm not a really front runner for it, but I just say put your name in the hat and you just never know.

SPEAKER_01 3:51

How do you how do you get that position? Is that like a vote? Selected, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:56

So it's it's through the American Psychological Association. So I would be the liaison for Michigan psychologists and anyone that sees a psychologist or social worker counselor. So I'd be advocating for you guys, but only people can vote. I appreciate you were like, How do we vote for you? Yeah, I'm I've just got to tell other psychologists and social workers and counselors that are in that. Yeah, it's gonna be a small group, they're gonna vote. All my advocacy work is not really in psychology, it's in other areas.

SPEAKER_01 4:21

So anybody who's watching who's able to vote, man, make sure y'all go vote.

SPEAKER_03 4:25

Thank you, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 4:26

Uh it's definitely a must-have on your team, man. Let me tell you something. And we're gonna just breeze over this part just a little bit because I've met her in my what I like to call philanthropy work because I always say me being a coach is what I was built for. But immediately when I went into her home, we just started vibing, we started talking. She was like, I do this, and I was like, Oh, I do this, and I think we should link up and let's let's make it happen. And she was she was so honored and and and just open to it, and I was like, I can't wait, we're gonna do it. So that got us here. So I'm excited about today. And I remember we had a discussion before we started, and I was asking you, like, you know, where do you what do you what's your strong suit? And I know that was hard to actually pick one because you got so many, but one of the main things you said was codependency. And I was thinking about codependency from a relationship standpoint, and I said, Okay, let's dive into that first. All right. So, my first question that I got for you is what codependency really is, right? And we want to break it down for them in a way where they can just pick it up so smoothly. Yeah, so what is codependency?

SPEAKER_03 5:39

I so let me tell you, is most people misunderstand the term. Okay, when I use the term codependency, people think it means you're dependent on another person, right? Codependency really is um, you know, like the infinity circle, like that infinity eighth circle. Yeah, it uh codependency is two people that are drawn to each other that help fulfill the need to maintain like a maladaptive control or lack of control. And I can give you an example that might be helpful. The historical term has been like someone that's an addict and someone that is kind of enabling an addict. But everyone pays attention to the addict because they're falling apart. But this the part that surprises people is that the person that's enabling is just as problematic, and that's the ones we see that are drained and angry and overwhelmed, but ultimately they find each other like a magnet and they feed on each other. So codependency is not what the world defines as being dependent on someone, it's about the fact that they're they're like a magnet for one another to perpetuate unfinished business in their life.

SPEAKER_01 6:53

Okay, that's deep. I didn't, you know, I never looked at it from that standpoint myself. I always look at it from, I guess we would say the negative connotation of it to where, let's say I had a family member who up until the day that the his mom passed, I felt like the word would have been codependency because she kind of he depended on her for literally everything.

SPEAKER_04 7:17

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 7:18

Finances, just literally everything. And in my opinion, I felt like it was kind of hindering him a lot. Because for one, you wasn't gonna be here forever. You was already getting kind of you know sick, and you never really prepped him to be, you know, available to do it on his own. And then for two, I mean, this is the one thing me and my wife had to talk about with not only our kids, but we raised other people, other kids as well that we call ours. So it was always, I know we don't want them to go through a lot of things that we went through, but we have to step back and let them, you know, bump their head first, understand it, at least give it a shot, see where, see where you need help at, and then do it. If we just automatically jump in, I think that creates the negative part of the codependency, right?

SPEAKER_03 8:05

I agree. No, that was a great example. The person is usually enabling the person not to find their own footing, and so they're enabling the person to not find their own footing, essentially. Um, I think we originally use alcoholism as like a great example because it's so evident, right? But ultimately, parents do it to their children and ultimately partners do it to each other. But there's something within them that they need each other. The person has to fall apart, this person has to rescue them, but they find value in rescuing someone, but in the end, they're depleted.

SPEAKER_01 8:38

Okay, all right, I like that. So, do you think codependency is something that you're necessarily born into, or is there something you learn from like past relationship?

SPEAKER_03 8:50

I'm gonna be honest with you, it's usually a generational issue.

SPEAKER_02 8:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 8:54

Um, and you wouldn't be born into it, like it's not like you would have genetic makeup for it. Okay, it's essentially generational problems on how the family functions, and then you just see it in your family. So it's a term that kind of throws people off at first. So you're just gonna bear with me for a minute. Okay. Because most people only use it in predatory components, but there's a grooming to both of the role. You kind of teach someone to be like the receiver of the codependency, like the receiver of being enabled, and then you groom someone into taking on that role. I know it's a strong term, but I use it often in therapy because it's basically we're taught it, but we're also reinforced to do it. Like the child that's reinforced to sacrifice their own needs in high school to take care of their parents that isn't able to maintain their job. And so the kids now at the point to where they're like taking care of all the other kids and all that stuff. So I can give you tons of other examples as well. But us essentially, we're kind of like, I would say, groomed into it. And I don't think it's on purpose. I think sometimes it's life, it's circumstances, but it's like, what's the root of it? There's like a nuance to where it's not really people working together, it's kind of taking on too much. I don't know if I it's making sense, but taking on too much burden that you lose your the key is losing yourself in the process.

SPEAKER_01 10:21

Okay, okay, we're gonna put a pin in that piece right there because I know that's coming back. That's gonna be that's gonna be nice. I like that. So let's answer this question. How can you how can somebody tell the difference between like just being a good partner and being codependent?

SPEAKER_03 10:38

It's a great question. It's when you're depleted, it's when you're giving more than you have to give. When you it's essentially when you see yourself feeling depleted and you're starting to want to hoard back your giving, when you feel like you're plugging into someone and you're flowing into someone, but it's not flowing back in the way that meets your needs. So when you find yourself empty, is when you know that it's no longer loving someone. And do you guys know what your communication is, your giving style, where the person is giving to each other appropriately too? It's when you find yourself depleted.

SPEAKER_01 11:12

Okay. So I I always ask this question. This is kind of how I see things a lot, right? Uh sometimes as a giver, you're just prone to give. That's just what you do. But you don't necessarily look for the receiving from the person that you're giving to. So, in that in that instance, right? Does that mean you should go out and find not necessarily in a relationship, but somebody who's also gonna be put pouring back into you so that you're not depleted?

SPEAKER_03 11:43

It's a good question. I think we I think there's a difference between relationships and codependent relationships. So we really have to distinguish the two relationships that don't have this thing to where they so a person that's enabling, they're doing it because they're trying to fulfill something within themselves of their worth and value. Like, so you got to get into more of the question is why does someone come in that way? They're trying to find love through serving other people. And listen, I have a servant spirit, I do, I love to serve.

SPEAKER_01 12:12

I can tell.

SPEAKER_03 12:12

Yeah, I do have a serve, I've had a servant spirit since I was 14, honestly. But there's a point to where are you doing it because you're you you're ready to serve? Are you doing it because you're trying to find what trying to find love? And so I think we're talking two different things. If you're in a normal, healthy relationship, like flowing and giving is one thing, but when you're doing it to find worth and value, that's where codependency lies. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 12:39

Yeah, definitely. Okay. Another thing that we were talking about was just like the imbalances of giving, right? At what point does giving become self-neglect? And I know I think you kind of touched on that just a little bit, but we could just go a little bit deeper into that. So when when does it become neglect for yourself? And I know you said from the depletion part of it, right?

SPEAKER_03 13:03

Yeah, let me give some example. Let's say you're in a marriage, right? Let's say you're in a marriage and you know, you're the one who's always doing all the laundry and the responsibilities, and you're doing all like you're doing all the the responsibilities, you're taking care of the children, you're and then like at the end of the night, your your partner's also wanting something from you. When you have this imbalance of load, like you are two people trying to build something together, but this person is not carrying the load, and then through time, the person doesn't have anything more to give to their partner. So, this is a lot what happens in marriages, just remember, there's relationships and then there's codependency.

SPEAKER_02 13:41

Right.

SPEAKER_03 13:41

But just this aspect, I guess I was using an example that could be both, but it's really when you feel like you start feeling resentful and you start getting angry and you're making arguments that are much larger than what the argument is. I guess if that makes sense. I don't know if you need to follow up if that I know it's kind of a convoluted like codependency is a convoluted thing because what is a relationship and what is codependency, right?

SPEAKER_01 14:04

And so for me, I think the part that helped me out a lot in that area is I learned a while ago how to compartmentalize not just my giving, but just what people need, right? Because I put on a lot of different hats on a daily basis, and it's some days where every hat pulls from you. And if you don't compartmentalize, in my opinion, that's what pushes you to be depleted even quicker than you normally would, right? And I always tell my wife, we always talk about like putting everything in the same basket. Like I can't get mad at you because I was already upset when I came in here. Yeah, so I get I got I have to be able to turn that off, put on a different hat, compartmentalize just life in itself, and and you know, go for it. So that's the one thing I always try to lean on. I think that helps out a lot as well.

SPEAKER_03 15:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:02

Okay, now there's there's a such thing as overgiving. So do you think that's a form of control or fear of an of abandonment?

SPEAKER_03 15:14

I think it's both.

SPEAKER_02 15:16

I like it.

SPEAKER_03 15:17

I think it's both, to be honest with you. I think when we talk about codependency, and remember the root is someone has to fall apart, and then someone is picking up the pieces, but they get reward for picking up the pieces. So ultimately, the person that's picking up the pieces is essentially wondering if they're worth loving. So they're only worth loving if they give, they're only worth loving if they self-sacrifice, and they're doing it all thinking, I've done all of this. Why doesn't that person give me back? So that's why they feel empty.

SPEAKER_01 15:52

I like that.

SPEAKER_03 15:53

So I think it's both, honestly. Okay, and then the thing is, is the control part comes in, they don't know that they're worth loving, and so this person falls apart, so then they need to control them to have homeostasis, which is balance.

SPEAKER_01 16:08

I like that.

SPEAKER_03 16:09

Okay, all right, and remember though, that both of them one person is. I think the things we always feel bad for the ones that are overgiving, but it and we are mad at the person that's taking, yeah, but that's not true. This person needs that role just as much as this person. This person actually starts falling apart, so this person has something to do.

SPEAKER_01 16:30

I think that comes with like understanding the the uh makeup of a person, honestly, right? I think sometimes we look at somebody just from the outside. We might love this person, and we're looking at the relationship that they're in from the outside of the picture, and we feel like they're being used, we feel like this is, but they actually need that. It's feeding them, it's getting them to that next level.

SPEAKER_03 16:52

You got it. That's exactly what is. You need they they need to be a martyr.

SPEAKER_01 16:57

You know what's you know what I know it's a powerful word, but yeah, no, that's powerful.

SPEAKER_03 17:00

I just want you to, I'm using I want you to they need to be the martyr.

SPEAKER_01 17:04

I love that. And I'm gonna the example that I get when I just heard you say that was my dad, my wife's dad, he got sick back in like 2020, had a stroke, and all of that good stuff. And I honestly believe that he is still here with us today because he still feels needed.

SPEAKER_03 17:27

Wow, that's powerful.

SPEAKER_01 17:29

So, and I have a conversation with him daily because you know he lives with me. So I talk to him daily, and I can hear in just the conversation that he feels needed by different people in the family, right? And and that's just something that he needs to feel. And I think that at the moment that he doesn't feel needed will be the day that he'll just relax, and if it's time for him to go, he'll go.

SPEAKER_03 17:52

Yeah, that's a beautiful example, yeah. And the thing is, is the the love is really telling the person that you no longer need them in that way and that you love them no matter what.

SPEAKER_01 18:02

Yeah, yeah, I like that. And so if you speak that truth on a regular so okay, let's talk about another point that you tapped on earlier, and that's just basically people who lose themselves in certain situations and certain relationships and things of that nature. Can you give me a few red flags of someone who's losing themselves in a relationship so that they can even identify what's happening?

SPEAKER_03 18:30

To themselves or someone else watching someone. I'm gonna say to themselves. Okay. Oh, that's a good question. Let me think. I I wasn't prepared and like I just wasn't really ready for that one. So I think when they're starting to become angry and they're wanting to hoard, like they're wanting to hoard their their giving, when they start feeling like people in every area of their life, they're like, there's nothing left. That's probably the key, is like there's nothing left, and they feel the need to start having to hoard themselves. And no relationship can sustain itself if you're starting to hoard yourself. And that like there's almost like a checks and balance is like you keep on repeating, like you're not here, you're not showing up, or I think it's just the need to have to hoard oneself, and then also just being drained by the smallest bit, or also like when someone this is the third one, which is when someone is asking of you something that seems really simple, but you can only give when it's when you want to give and how you want to give, like it has to be done your way or no way at all. I guess those would be the three that popped in my head.

SPEAKER_01 19:36

That's that's deep. I like that. I couldn't actually think of sometimes that I felt like that. Now, what's a good way to get out of that feeling though?

SPEAKER_03 19:44

I I'm gonna be honest, it's a lot of work because most people that have codependency, they were groomed into it and they were groomed at very early ages. It's not usually when they first start dating, it was there before, and they saw it in relationships, they saw it in their their parents, they saw it in early on when they were first dating. So it's really a lot. I'm gonna be honest with you, I hate to say it, but go to a psychologist that specializes in codependency. Sorry. And what did they find a special psychologist? Authentic self psychological services.com.

SPEAKER_01 20:18

There we go.

SPEAKER_03 20:19

The oh, it's actually authentic self psychology.com. That one was already taken. I had to get a hyphen in there. But honestly, it's really people think, okay, this is another thing. I'm just I'll add, I don't know if you're asking. A lot of people come to therapy and they're like, this is the life I have. I don't want to deal with anything past. This is gonna be kind of an important like epiphany of freedom, which is people take on so much weight and responsibility of the personality of like, well, this is what I have, let's build from here. That's just not how it works. We have to go back and unearth what did you see? How did you experience relationships? What were your first relationship experiences that have kind of melded you to this point? Because you have to release the weight that it's your fault. You have to go back, and it's not about blaming your parents, it's about like what did they have to work with? Because we all have something we have to deal with, which is what did they have to work with? What is not yours to carry? Unearth that and rebuild. Because a lot of people are just like, well, let me start from here on, and that's just not how it works. Right. Because we don't have these codent relationships unless we were taught them, right? Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 21:28

Yeah, and I think even in what you're saying, like a lot of the teaching is never really verbal, it's more visual, right? So you just kind of see how your parents may have done things, and then you just took on that same sentiment, or you just see how things happen maybe in your neighborhood or your environment, and then you just took on that same, you know, sentiment thing.

SPEAKER_03 21:48

A thousand percent, honestly. Because remember, I'm gonna throw some stats out here. So five percent of communication is is verbal, 95% is nonverbal. Right. We are learning. How we're supposed to engage in the world. We learn it too. You know, you learn how to read when you start crawling because you're doing right to left. You would never know that crawling is such an important thing. It teaches you right to left. So we're learning relationships at two and four and six. I mean, we're learning that throughout our lives. So, really, to be honest with you, you we really have to look at ourselves and heal ourselves before we can really actually heal it in a relationship. I'm sure you'll get to that more later, too.

SPEAKER_01 22:29

Most definitely because, and this is the thing. I when I coach my couples, the first thing I do is I make them take ownership, right? The big the most powerful thing I feel like you can do, not just in a relationship, but just in life, period, is take the blame for whatever the issue is. Take the blame. And the reason I say that is because if I can if I take the blame, then that gives me the power to fix it.

SPEAKER_02 22:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 22:56

But if I put the blame on you, now I'm waiting on you to make a change to be able to fix something. So when dealing with relationships, what part of this is your blame? How can we get this? How can you fix it?

SPEAKER_03 23:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 23:10

You know, so that's the biggest thing there. So when you helping people, do you find it harder to help one gender over the other?

SPEAKER_03 23:19

Oh, that is such a good and a good juicy question, honestly. So I'm pretty authentic. I'm a boater, an immigrant. So English wasn't my first language. I'm usually pretty frank, honestly. So I will tell you there's a difference. And also in being a clinician, as long as I am, I know I have to like decide what my capacity is at time. So it changes. So right now, believe it or not, you know who are the easiest people to treat right now? But let me finish it. I'm gonna tell you, but you gotta let me finish, which is men. And because women have had permission to express their emotions and feelings throughout their life, and men have not. So when they enter the room, they take a lot of reverence for what they're doing, they're really ready for it. And this is post-pandemic, it was different pre-pandemic.

SPEAKER_02 24:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 24:04

Post-pandemic is a very different client base, but ultimately women have permission for the emotions and feelings in their processing. Men have never, so they just have a higher climb. It doesn't mean that women can't either, but men have a quick higher climb. And there's much more like a certain, I think, surrendering to the process because they're really ready for it. When people are like court-ordered, I hate the only people I hate working with are court-ordered people. My wife made me come, my husband made me come, the courts made me come. But ultimately, I think men just have never had permission. So I can give them vocabulary really quick. Like they're just they're just ready to climb because they didn't have those tools that women have. So it's not about the fact that one can grow quick, one is like gonna get there faster than the other. It's just they're just in a place where they just have a lot more learning curve because they haven't had the permission to have feelings.

SPEAKER_01 24:53

I like that. I like that. And you know, the the reason I ask that is because I I'm the same way with the way you feel on that. When I deal with couples, it's usually for me, it's easier to deal with the the actual partner that came in.

SPEAKER_03 25:07

Oh, yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 25:08

Yeah, but and that's usually the women.

SPEAKER_03 25:10

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:11

So the thing that I the edge that I get is that the first thing I tell you when you come in is how I'm not, I wasn't perfect. You know what I mean? I tell you all my indiscretion to let you know this is why I'm good at doing what I do, because I actually did what you're doing, and this is how we got out of that, and this is how we're still together 26 years later, and this is how we still strong and loving life and loving being with each other, right? So once I kind of break down that barrier, it kind of let they take their guard down at that point, and they like, okay, he's he's a regular person that I can kind of open up to him. So that's why I asked that question, and then and it and it kind of varies with my couples too, based off of like your race and your where you were born, what what area of the city or state you were, you know, from. So you have you seen that as well as far as like race rise?

SPEAKER_03 26:06

Well, I want to first say commend you for like because I think what you do is different than I do, but you're an imperative part to the process because my job, I can't disclose anything about myself. I'm there to serve them. But I think that there's a place for everyone at different points in their journey to recovering from whatever brought them to having comp conflicts in a relationship. Right. So, like, I can't disclose anything because my job ethically is that I can't be present in the room. Now, I think I have an outgoing personality. I think people can pick up real quick who I am. But so one, I just wanted to commend you for you doing your part and doing it because we have different roles, and I see us as like a spoke of a wheel, and ultimately each one of us have a different part in playing, and you're an important part. But I don't think I answered your question. I just wanted to commend you for what you were doing. Oh, thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it. But I don't know what the question was, so I don't know if we're still on it or not. So no, no, you answered it perfectly. Okay, good.

SPEAKER_01 27:02

You definitely answered it perfectly. Um okay, this is the this is the deep one.

SPEAKER_03 27:06

Okay, I'm ready.

SPEAKER_01 27:08

Is it possible that your love is actually suffocating the your partner?

SPEAKER_03 27:16

The essence of what codependency, that's the essence of it, is it is because remember, it's two people that have a maladaptive history with loving themselves, ultimately loving themselves, and they found each other, and essentially they need each other to survive, but in essence, they have to stay sick for each other. So, yes, if you don't explore what codependency is, you will actually hurt each other. The person will have to continue to be taken care of, and this person will always have to take care of them, and they will never grow as an individual. Yes, it's essentially the essence of a maladaptive component to a relationship.

SPEAKER_01 27:57

Do you think you can steal from what's the word I'm looking for? When you just feel like you wasn't there physically at first, right? Why am I drawing a blank for this? So let's say I know you needed help in the past, or I wasn't present in your life in the past, and now I'm just trying to make up for lost time. And in doing so, now I'm overdoing things, and the codependency is maybe growing in that area to where I feel like I have to do this even more. Like, I guess the question is codependency can actually grow from a short term and not just a long term.

SPEAKER_03 28:36

Oh, yeah, because it's not something about the person, it's about your history that gets present and into the relationship. It's kind of like like, for example, if someone was sexually abused in childhood and then they come into a relationship, you can't divorce yourself from that. But you both have to be a part of that. So most people just find each other because it's unfinished business. Now, I mean, can someone survive it? Sure. Can you? I mean, yes, but it you both have to be actively aware of why you're not loving yourself properly.

SPEAKER_02 29:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 29:05

And that you're using the other person an attempt to fix what is broken inside from earlier life or earlier relationships. And it's usually something about not knowing whether you're worth being loved, and that's early on in childhood.

SPEAKER_01 29:19

And I think that's that's deep as well, because even in our relationship, the biggest thing was the decision that I was making. I didn't even realize why I was making certain decisions. Yeah. And it took for me to actually assess myself, which which is something that I noticed was hard for a lot of people. They had the the inability to self-assess. But I was I was sitting there and I say, Well, I I I keep making these decisions, and you never think about the consequences after that, right? Until it happens. And I'm like, I would say, okay, I'm not gonna do it anymore. And I would mean it, right? And then time goes by and I do it again. I'm like, and this is the thing that I I put, and some people hate when I do this, but when you speak about like alcoholics, when you think of when you speak about just like drug addicts and things of that nature, I also put like people who have infidelity issues in that same realm. Because even when you we'll say quote unquote heal from it or healing from it, because it's I am in my terms, I feel like you're just constantly healing. You just got it's one of those things where you have to continue to work at. You have to know that you had that spirit in you and you know work at it. But if you know why you did it, then it makes it easier to not do it.

SPEAKER_03 30:47

Oh, yeah. Like we gotta well, in like infidelity, honestly, has nothing to do with the partner, it has to do with insecurities and self-doubt within oneself, right? And they're looking to feel something that isn't reality. That's that's true. So you're escaping reality, and and when you're in a relationship, you can't avoid those realities. So, but you originally the original question was related to guilt. Like if I feel guilty about something, can I come back into a relationship and fix that? You gotta really kind of go into why did it happen? And guilt can't fix it. Can't no matter what, the person's gonna resent until restoration happens. So you cannot overlove someone through guilt. That is just gonna actually just perpetuate. You're almost reinforcing the anger because you're reinforcing the anger because if I stay angry, maybe they won't do it again.

SPEAKER_01 31:38

I like that. And that's in relationship ways, right? So let me just flip it just a little bit. I want to see if you feel the same way when you're speaking about like mother and son, mother and daughter, father and son, right? Where as a child, if my dad wasn't in my life and with no excuse, no reason why, but then he's an amazing grandfather because he wants to make up for the fact that he wasn't there for me as a as a as a son, right? That could actually make the child feel even worse, right?

SPEAKER_03 32:14

It could do many different things, to be honest to you. It could it could be very healing and it could be also very resentful. I guess it depends on how much your needs are being met at the time. And again, how much work you've done internally, because you you you really can't you have to forgive someone, not time, right?

SPEAKER_01 32:33

But one of the say that again for the people in the back that didn't hear that one.

SPEAKER_03 32:36

I don't know if I can't again you repeat it for me. I'm terrible at reciting. My clients always like, oh, she'll never say it again twice.

SPEAKER_01 32:43

I just you have to forgive yourself, not time. That's that's oh, perfect.

SPEAKER_03 32:47

Okay, it'll be on a shirt. I have a whole bunch of shirts I want to create.

SPEAKER_01 32:52

So I'm gonna make it and send it to you.

SPEAKER_03 32:54

Okay, another one, which is a codependency slogan, is hope is not an appropriate coping mechanism. Because that's the essence of what codependency is. I'm hoping this person's gonna change. If I keep on loving them, they're gonna change. If I just heal them the right way, it's gonna change. They don't realize they're part of the problem. But anyway, that's my t-shirt uh business one day that I'm gonna create. Okay, say that I can say this one again because it's say that again. I have a few, I don't want to give them all to you, or I gotta do trademarks here. Um hope is not an appropriate coping mechanism, and that is essentially a codependent, the one that takes charge, the one that wants to be in control. That's their essence of their coping mechanism is hope. That if I give enough or I love enough or I keep on doing it, then I hope this person's gonna finally get it together. And that's just not how it works. They have to basically work, do the work themselves. I'm gonna switch off a little to make it make sense. Like someone that's gone through trauma, their solution is that I'm gonna basically anticipate every problem because if I'm prepared for it, I'll do better. So that's essentially what someone in codependency is wanting. Hope is essentially the solution, and it'll never work because they need to fall apart so you can be in control, and they can never get better if you need to be in control. It's like a vice that keeps on keeping someone unhealthy.

SPEAKER_01 34:15

So and so essentially it's almost like you are a human medication.

SPEAKER_03 34:20

Oh, per yes, absolutely, and so it'll never stop because and then the person this per time the person that's like sick gets healthy, the person can't handle it because then they don't have a job any longer.

SPEAKER_01 34:32

That's true. Okay, I like that. I like that. Y'all hear it? Yeah, man, I like that. All right, let's speak on just breaking the pattern. Okay, all right. So, how does someone start setting boundaries without feeling like they're hurting their partner?

SPEAKER_03 34:47

This is the this is the hardest part when I'm working with clients that have a long history of codependency. They think I'm gonna answer, but in I'm gonna use a different term. They think they're being mean by setting boundaries. It's about setting boundaries. Um, the key is is setting boundaries, but they think they're being mean by setting a boundary. But the only way they can heal is by saying, This is all I have to give, or this is this is it basically, this is the line. The problem is, is most people don't set the line until it's already really bad. So I I always tell people you got to figure out what your boundary is before you get into the relationship. Because you find yourself slowly, incrementally just like getting closer, and all of a sudden, who am I? How am I? Why am I so angry? Why is this going so poorly? Is because they crossed their internal line and they didn't know what it should have been there. So the key is I don't know if I it was long-winded if you picked up on it. You picked up all right, you picked it up. All right, I loved it. And I and so boundaries is the key. And ultimately, when you are over giving, when all you do is give to say that you have worth and being loved, you don't know where that boundary is supposed to be. And so the key is you have to figure out what is an equal relationship.

SPEAKER_01 36:02

So you think that takes time with that takes the assessment of you spending time with yourself?

SPEAKER_03 36:08

It's all internal work.

SPEAKER_01 36:10

So, okay, so what would you tell somebody like? So my wife and I, we've been together 26 years.

SPEAKER_03 36:15

Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right.

SPEAKER_01 36:17

So it was back in the 1900s, right? And we was at a young age to where we didn't really understand what boundaries were, right?

SPEAKER_03 36:26

So no, that's fair. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:28

So obviously, we have to start setting boundaries throughout the relationship, a thing that we don't want to deal with. We feel like it'll it'll break us if we keep dealing with these types of things. How would you tell someone who's been in a relationship of that stature?

SPEAKER_03 36:43

Yeah, that's a great that you're right. Like that's another capacity. It's different if you're an adult, you already know you have these problems. But when you're when you're younger and you're learning how to date and stuff like that, essentially, I think the person has to know why they're no longer wanting to give. Like they have to understand why they no longer want to give or how the why they're feeling so depleted. Because essentially, what a relationship is is that I flow into you and you flow into me. And essentially through it, we have our needs met. And then when you no longer want to give anymore, or the fight, the fights keep on happening, you got to figure out why you feel so depleted. And you it's just basically reconciliation, but basically saying, This is who I am today, this is what my needs are, these are where my needs aren't currently being met. Like you get a lot of, I'll use an example where a husband and wife like might be together, and the husband's like, Well, my needs are met through sex, and then the other ones, well, my needs are met through this. And the reason why she's withholding is because her other needs aren't being met. So you're just gonna have to have some real authentic, raw conversations, and yeah, and that's what I was getting to is too as well.

SPEAKER_01 37:47

Is I think the biggest thing is really communicating. I hate saying that because it sounds so cliche, but it is what it is. Like if you learn how to communicate, and I think it gets lost in conversation when I say communicate because people think that's only verbally.

SPEAKER_03 38:04

Well, you're right, but you understand communication. But do the people in the world know what communication? So when you say it, so I would probably say the word restore instead. Because I think when you heard the word communication, everyone starts getting like they their eyes gloss over, they just like it's just a cliche, and then people just stop because they don't even know what that means. But I know you know what it means, it just does everybody else know what it means. So I would just say, like, what needs to be restored. So I would say restoration.

SPEAKER_01 38:35

I like that, right? Let me add that into my repertoire. Yeah, all right, all right.

SPEAKER_03 38:39

I like that because I don't think everyone under like you understand verbal and nonverbal communication, like, but I don't know if everyone understands that communication is also in serving and giving and knowing what your partner's love language is, and because a lot of people give in the way that they'd want to be given to, but that person doesn't even feel any of it.

SPEAKER_01 38:57

What do you say to the person, like, okay, even speaking with boundaries of saying I need this from you, and you as the person who I'm talking to, say, okay, I can I can give you the this that you're asking for, but then how do that person come around and say, Maybe I can't give you that? Or is that something do you think that's a fear for somebody to be able to say I can't do what you're asking for?

SPEAKER_03 39:22

It tells me that the relationship has a lot of fractures. It just tells me when someone is withholding, that means they're punishing them. So, I mean, if you really love someone, you don't want to withhold right and you don't want to punish, but that just means there's fractures to the relationships that have been ignored. That's all it means. You have to go into where were the original fractures.

SPEAKER_01 39:43

I love it. Yeah, I love it. All right. So, what's the first step to becoming emotionally independent?

SPEAKER_03 39:51

Ooh. I honestly, so you use the word, I forgot what you said earlier. You use the word that you're never done working. What was the term? I'm sorry, I forgot. I will tell you, I'm just I don't remember what it was, it was earlier, but it self-actualization is essentially a term used. It's from Maslow's hierarchy of needs. I know I'm getting into it, I'm getting into it, I'm getting into it. Give it to us, give it to us if you like it. You can Google it, it's really powerful. Okay, so this is also an important part. Um, because when sometimes people are coming from a depleted spot because of poverty or opportunity or a lack of privilege. So we also have to honor those things too. So I'm gonna bear with me for a minute. So Master's hierarchy of needs, you can Google it. He's been around for a long time. There's a pyramid, and there's you can't, the third stage is belonging, and you can't really love someone until the other needs are met. So we have I look, I should, I'm, you know, I got the I don't have the pyramid in front of me. So it's about put it on the screen. Yeah, yeah, put it on the screen. Yeah. So there's like, you know, you have to make sure you have food and shelter, and then you gotta make sure, you know, you gotta have safe, you're first saved, and then food and shelter, then belonging. And that self-actualization is something you never reach, but it's essentially evolving yourself to the day you die. You will never reach self-actualization because that's the day you die, because you should never not stop working on yourself.

SPEAKER_02 41:09

Right.

SPEAKER_03 41:10

But so part of it is too, is is does this person are the is that person safe? Do they have their needs met? I'm gonna do an off, off, like I'll just spin it for a second. Like when I go on a date for the first time, like as a woman, I have to make sure I'm safe. And the thing is, is physically fit, oh no, I'm well, I'm I'm fine. You know what I mean? So so for me, I can't really connect with a person until I'm safe. So I have a habit. So if I'm gonna go in a car with someone or I'm gonna go to their house, I'm taking a picture of their driver's license, send it to a friend of mine, because that takes safety off the plate. People are like, Well, how can you ask them to do that? I'm like, this man is not gonna know who I am until I know that this is this person who's gonna kill me in the corner. You know what I mean? Right. So, and the guy is sitting there going, he doesn't have to worry about safety, he's not worried about his safety. So he's like, Is she gonna reject me? So we're coming to the same place from a different stage in the hierarchy. So if we can come to this hierarchy of belonging at the same place, then we can actually build. So going back to I I said I'd spin off, but I'm gonna come back, which is so when a couple sitting there, you got to figure out what the real problem is. Is it because she doesn't feel safe? And typically she's looking for safety and security. And we're talking about heterose heterosexual relationships, and this, and we haven't even talked about other relationships, but I'm just talking about heterosexual relationships, male, female. Um, there are other things when it comes to non-binary individuals or trans individuals, there's other variables, but if we just stay on a heterosexual relationship, ultimately he's he needs to be needed in his fear of rejecting. And hers is essentially, I need to know I'm safe and secure. It's still there. And so when you're sitting there wanting to deconstruct or reconstruct a relationship, you got to find out what the real problem is. Is she feeling safe? Is she feeling secure? Does that make sense? And is he feeling needed and worth and have value? Is he feeling that?

SPEAKER_01 43:05

Do you find codependency heavier in one form of relationship than others? So, like in a head of electric in a heterosexual relationship versus the LBG of any time?

SPEAKER_03 43:19

That's a good question. I'm gonna tell you, you're gonna find it when there's trauma. Okay, so it's not really base. No, it's really about trauma. It's not it's not gender. Now, I would say, like within the black community, there's so much more oppression, so and there's so much lack of more lack of opportunity. So there may be more of that in that community because you don't have the same financial stability as you might have in a more privileged home, you know, more of a financially privilege or opportunity, like how many people in the family went to college, how many people didn't, and how many people had to sacrifice to go to college for a family member. So it really has to do with privilege and opportunity, to be honest with you, or trauma, because certain groups have to like trans. Trans person, like whenever I treat trans individuals in my office, they're so grateful because they're I'm treating them as a person where someone else isn't. So it really comes down to how much trauma has the person had to endure. Is poverty a part of it? Is a lack of privilege? Do they have a good education? Have they like it really comes down to it comes down to how much hardship has a person had to deal with? And there's gonna be more codependency because there's no room for error, error with trauma. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 44:32

Yeah, definitely. I I and I understand that a lot too. And that's what that was part of my own reflection when I was assessing myself was okay, what trauma? Because okay, so how I was raised, we were not allowed to have trauma, or at least discuss it, right? Suck it up and move on. Speak it up under the road, suck it up and move on. Yeah, so then you realize once you get older, and sometimes in 2026 and beyond, you don't even have to be older now. Like you realize way quicker now than you did when I was coming up, right?

SPEAKER_02 45:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:07

And you're like, wait, so that that actually affects me.

SPEAKER_03 45:12

Well, so I find that I find that that that my clients that are black that come to me, they don't even know that they have trauma. That was yeah, I'm telling you, and I'm breaking it down for them for the first time. I'm like, if you're sitting in your classroom and the person next to you didn't, I'll say it some more about this, it's called adverse childhood experiences. And people don't really know that what it takes for a child to have trauma and what it takes for an adult to have trauma is different. And so if you have a parent that, if you have one single, if you have one parent in the house, that's an adverse childhood experience, which is a trauma. If you have someone that has financial difficulties, that's a trauma. And when you keep on adding them, that is essentially trauma for a child and it changed the neurological development of your brain. And everything from heart it being harder to find a job, or it, I mean, there's so many different things. So all that would add to codependency because you don't have a framework that the neighbor next to you has.

SPEAKER_01 46:08

Yeah, I like that. Oh man, I hope y'all got a lot out of this episode today, man. Woo! I love it. Let me see. Because you just said something else. I know I spun off.

SPEAKER_03 46:21

I spun off.

SPEAKER_01 46:24

It'll come back to me in a minute.

SPEAKER_03 46:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 46:26

What do you say to somebody who feels like if I stop giving, I'll lose them?

SPEAKER_03 46:34

Well, that so that kind of goes into they don't know they're worth loving. So they're gonna continue to love so that person will stay. And so ultimately they have to test the relationship. They have to, they really have to work on are they worth loving? You know, and if they can really love themselves, I imagine you're gonna say, like, this might be a question live for later, but if they can really love themselves, they won't be in that imbalance relationship. So they're gonna have to start saying no to loving to buy it's essentially buying your the love. And how is that really a loving relationship? Now I know they feel it, but until they love themselves first, they won't have it. And that's essentially if I quit giving to this person, this person's gonna leave. Well, then that means it's an exchange, right?

SPEAKER_01 47:26

Right.

SPEAKER_03 47:27

I don't mean to be crass, but it's a little like prostitution.

SPEAKER_01 47:33

Let's go. Let's go. You're talking now.

SPEAKER_03 47:37

So I know that's crass, but I gotta say, it's like it's an it's it's a exchange. But it's it's the most it'd be easier for it to be prostitution because you understand what the nature of it is. But when you're sitting there giving and giving, hoping this person's gonna love you, you just end up being this like that you go back to being a child and think, am I worth loving? So you're gonna have to set boundaries and say, I am worth loving. Is this person willing to show up?

SPEAKER_01 48:04

I like that. Do you think that you think it'll help if like they always tell you if you are the smartest person in the room, then you might have to elevate and put yourself in a different room. Just so that just so that you can kind of still learn more. Because at some point, what happens is I feel like if you are the smartest person in the room, you stop trying to grow, you just want to stay where you are, you're comfortable. That's when comfort sits in. And I haven't said this on the podcast to you yet, but that is like a curse word to me. Okay, that's comfort.

SPEAKER_03 48:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 48:37

And the reason being is because when you are comfort, especially in a relationship, that's when you begin to mainly just coast and not continue to elevate. And the reason I say it is if you think about any uh any life form, right? People people in the army, the last thing the army teaches you is to be comfortable, comfortable. You're not sleeping in a sleep number bed, you are on a cot, you gotta be up and ready to go at any time. And if you're in a a rough neighborhood, the last thing you want to do is just be comfortable because that's when intruders can come in. When you have been hurt before, uh the last thing that you actually are in a relationship is comfortable because you don't want to be hurt again in that same capacity. So when you sit in comfort, then it throws things it's that I believe that can actually help with the imbalancing of this whole relationship piece. But if you put yourself around other people who may already be elevated a little higher than you in certain areas, I think that can give you even more to strive for, right?

SPEAKER_03 49:45

So I love this. So this is also showing us like our talents are different, like how you're describing it. I agree with you. I also have other things. So, like to me, so I was like a little bit about me as I'm an immigrant. English wasn't my first language. My parents come over here on the boat, that's where you get the boater from. But I learned that so this is um this helps. I'm gonna give like a different spin on it, but I totally agree with you. Yes and no to me. Like I see it as I came to this country and my immigrant parents don't know how to read and write, right? Right. I don't, and then I also live in the United States where people are going to college, right? And so I sit there and I'm like, I don't, I'm not allowed to wear makeup, or I'm not allowed to get, I have to be an arranged marriage, and I met 15 to someone 30. And then I'm also with people going to college, I don't fit into any world. And so, to my thought, is this is the way that you elevate yourself is not compare yourself to another person. The way you elevate yourself is just look at yourself and you just like look at where you were yesterday and you move. I don't disagree with you, like I'm agreeing with you, but that's how I've always done it is is is there's no two people that are the same. And I I kind of feel like I can sit with someone that's a janitor, I can sit with someone that that's an astrophysicist, and I'm gonna learn from any of them because there is no two frameworks alike.

SPEAKER_02 51:08

Right.

SPEAKER_03 51:08

So to me, I'm agreeing with you, but like, for example, I'm gonna tell you where I don't do that. I'm a cyclist, I'm gonna be riding across New York in July in seven days, 566 miles in seven days. But I don't like to cycle with people, I don't like to be the last because then I'll never grow. So that's the only one where I don't do that. But like, no, I agree with you. But I think to me, I think you need to surround yourself with everyone because I learn from everyone in a system. You just have to like you have to let yourself learn from everyone. But yes, you don't also just want to stay with people that are gonna keep you in your same group think. Yeah, you're gonna have to elevate yourself. So I wasn't saying no, I was just saying, like, for me, it's like multifaceted. You gotta know where you need to. The word I use is stretch myself. I gotta know where I need to stretch, where I need to restore myself, where I need to like just get everyone out of like my mindset, and then where it's just me looking at where I was yesterday. Does that make sense? Total, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:05

And and the part of me that was that made me even even go to that stratus was when you do put yourself in them different type of rooms like that, right?

SPEAKER_03 52:15

Yeah, you're gonna learn.

SPEAKER_01 52:16

You you learn. And if I'm in one room and I am the ultimate giver, yeah, and I put myself in a different room, and I'm still trying to be the ultimate giver, but I got the people who are a couple levels above me that are like, no, I got this. They're gonna sharpen.

SPEAKER_03 52:30

I'm gonna give they're gonna sharpen you.

SPEAKER_01 52:32

I think it helps you balance out and it helps you be able to go back to the other rooms and still be in your right frame to continue to do.

SPEAKER_03 52:41

I love it because you went back to codependency, which I was off track on. You brought me back in. I love it. You brought me back. No, because you're right, you're like essentially you cannot do it alone, and you need to make sure you're in places where other people can charge. But yeah, you brought us back in. I love it. You did it, you did it, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:57

So let's see. Well, yeah, last thing, last thing, because I want people to be able to find you when they, you know, if they have questions, if they need, you know, help in in any area, anyway, they want to talk about codependency a little bit more, however, they want to do it. How would you could do you have any social media forms, anything like that?

SPEAKER_03 53:18

You know, I'm so terrible about that. My age is showing up, but I do have I do have Instagram, but I don't do anything on it, so you're not gonna find anything there. Um honestly, my website and my email address. So my website is authenticself hyphen so dash psychology.com and my phone number, honestly, it's on the site. So 313-506-0658.

SPEAKER_01 53:43

And I'm gonna put it in the show notes and I'm gonna probably put it around put it on the screen like right here in this area.

SPEAKER_03 53:48

And I'm writing a book too. So one day I'm gonna be writing a book and I'm doing can I just I haven't written it yet. I haven't written it yet. So I don't even think I told you that, did I?

SPEAKER_01 53:58

I think you breathed over a little bit, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 54:00

So I'm writing a book, and it's not gonna be out for a really long time though, but I'm writing a book about not to psychologists, not to like a help book, help desk book. It's gonna be a book about the things I learned as a psychologist by sitting with people. And it's gonna be different subjects. Like one is gonna be I have a really long thing, I have a whole spiel, I won't even go into it. Maybe it'll be another podcast. I have another spiel, I have a spiel about trauma and how we manifest it in anxiety and anger and how we vilify those that are angry. But essentially, the people that have anxiety are just as problematic. But we vilify those that are angry and how they cope, but we expect them to take care of everybody. So that'll be a chapter, and it's gonna be a chapter about menopause, it's gonna be a chapter about relationships, but anyway. Okay, but but it it I need to like go in a four, I need to go in like a beach somewhere for like two weeks to start writing that.

SPEAKER_01 54:53

Okay, and then once once it's out and you got your your date together, we're gonna have to bring you back in so that we can uh you know get the promotion going because I'm a fan of of books. I got a couple books out. I'm working on my third one now.

SPEAKER_03 55:04

Yeah, tell me.

SPEAKER_01 55:05

The third one is actually gonna be my favorite to date, even though the last one keep people keep telling me I need to uh elaborate a lot more on. Okay. And it's called Indulging in Pandora's Box. So what I did was I took a lot of short stories that I had in my head and I put them in together and made a pardon me, made a book. And it's it came out amazing. But the next one is called The Fire Within. And it's a motivational self-help book that I am going to allow the people to help finish the book by you know writing in what they learned from that that that specific message. I love it. It's gonna be definitely amazing.

SPEAKER_03 55:46

Um, it's been so great. I'm so glad that we got the. Yeah, I love this. Thank you. Uh, any last words for the people on the subject of codependency, honestly, is the key is is you really have to figure out how do you love yourself first and foremost. And you can't love someone else properly or have a healthy relationship until you know you're worth loving. And I don't know if many people know that. I think through relationships is how they think they're gonna get love, but only through loving yourself and knowing that you have worth and value, knowing that you have strengths and weaknesses, um, is really how we can have healthy relationships.

SPEAKER_01 56:30

And that's what we promote here healthy healthy relationship. That's what we own. With that being said, I like I said, it's a pleasure. I'm so glad you graced me with this time. You said it from the jump. You're like, whenever you're ready, let me know. I was like, I'm ready, let's go.

SPEAKER_03 56:45

Thank you so much for having me. It was a pleasure, honestly.

SPEAKER_01 56:47

We'll have you back soon. Yep, sounds good. All right, it's your boy Coach DTM and the honorable doctor Christina Kalai. Talk about it. All right, we'll see y'all next week. Peace.

SPEAKER_04 57:05

Goodbye to my pain.